Pope on war in Ukraine: 'Do not be ashamed to negotiate'

By Devin Watkins

Pope Francis granted an interview to Radio Télévision Suisse (RTS), a Swiss public station broadcasting in French, a portion of which was released on Saturday afternoon.

The full interview with Lorenzo Buccella of the cultural programme “Cliché” was recorded in early February and will air on the Swiss TV station on March 20.

In the interview, according to the transcript by RTS, the Pope offered his thoughts on the wars staining the globe, especially Russia’s war in Ukraine and the Israel-Hamas war in Gaza.

Every day at 7 PM, the Pope places a phone call to the Holy Family Parish in Gaza, where 600 people are sheltering.

“They tell me about what they are witnessing,” he said. “It is a war. And it takes two to make war, not just one. Those responsible are these two who make war.”

He also lamented the “guerilla war” waged by Hamas, calling war “a terrible thing.”

‘Negotiations are never a surrender’

Pope Francis added that both sides of any war should always come to the table to carry out peace talks.

“Negotiations are never a surrender,” he said. “It is the courage not to carry a country to suicide.”

Speaking about peace talks, the Pope urged parties to the war in Ukraine to “not be ashamed to negotiate before things get worse.”

He pointed out that negotiations can also be carried out with the help of “international powers.”

“The word ‘negotiate’ is a couragous word,” he said. “When you see that you are defeated, that things are not going well, it is necessary to have the courage to negotiate. You may feel ashamed, but with how many deaths will it end? Negotiate in time; look for some country that can mediate. Today, for example in the war in Ukraine, there are many who want to mediate. Turkey has offered itself for this. And others. Do not be ashamed to negotiate before things get worse.”

‘War is always a human defeat, not a geographic one’

Later in the interview, Pope Francis repeated his refrain that “war is madness; it is madness.”

Asked about the image of the dove as a symbol of peace, the Pope recalled an event that occurred during his Sunday Angelus prayer on January 26, 2014. After two children with him released a pair of white doves after his appeal for peace, the doves were attacked by a black crow and a seagull.

“There is an image that always comes to me,” he said in the Swiss TV interview. “On the occasion of a commemoration where I had to speak about peace and release two doves, the first time I did it, immediately a crow present in St. Peter's Square rose up, grabbed the dove, and took it away. It's harsh. And this is somewhat what happens with war. Many innocent people cannot grow, many children have no future.”

Many Ukrainian children come to greet him, added the Pope, lamenting that they have lost the ability to smile.

“A child who doesn’t know how to smile does not seem to have a future,” he said. “War is always a defeat: a human defeat, not a geographic one.”

‘War is the power of darkness’

Pope Francis went on to consider the influence of arms manufacturers on wars.

“There are some who say, ‘It’s true but we must defend ourselves…’ But then you realize they have a factory that produces airplanes to bomb others,” he said. “Defend ourselves, no. Destroy. How does a war end? With death, destruction, and children without parents.”

He noted that there are always geographic or historical situations that provoke a war, leading to the conclusion that the war “seems just based on practical motives.”

“But behind every war,” he added, “there is the arms industry, and this means money.”

War, said Pope Francis, “is darkness, the power of darkness.”